Community and such truck

[exodus16_36]

Mods, I'm not sure where to put this, so...yeah.

Okay, this is going to be interesting, but I want to bring up something that I've noticed about this community since I've been a part of it.  It's been difficult to pinpoint, but recent events have helped me articulate what I think is a problem. 

In the case of recent events, it seems as though nothing is sacred until it is.  Where that line is, and who gets to cross it, and how far it may be crossed seems to be quite arbitrary depending on who you are.  In my time here, I have seen several people on the outer fringes of the community (often by no fault of their own) bring up issues to others, and basically been told to stuff it, as nothing was going to change.  Whatever behavior that was being questioned was acceptable to enough people for this person's opinion (regardless of whether it was right or wrong) not to matter.  But when the situation is reversed, and someone not necessarily always in the thick of the community is approached about something (whether it be right or wrong), they are expected to change.  There is a double standard that is extremely frustrating.

This is a difficult community to break into.  Lately, it seems as though we've been doing more things to make newbies more welcome (the wiki, for example).  For this to happen, I seriously think that the above needs to be properly addressed.  I'm well aware that we cannot make the general populace accept anyone, and I am not suggesting we do so.  I am also aware that certain taboos will enevitably arise in any community.  However, there comes a point where some of these taboos become incomprehensible, particularly to new people.  Any ever growing community should also be constantly open to the fact that things may need to change, and that an outside voice may very well be the catalyst for that change.  There's a lot of room for improvement here. 

(Please note that I'm trying to stay away from particulars here, and focus on principles.  I'm sure that the conversation would go much more smoothly if this could be the norm for this discussion.)

For those of you who would simply tell me to shut up and quit whining, please refrain from posting in this thread.  In addition to being rude, you will also be proving my point. 

[jholland]

Mods, I'm not sure where to put this, so...yeah.

Okay, this is going to be interesting, but I want to bring up something that I've noticed about this community since I've been a part of it.  It's been difficult to pinpoint, but recent events have helped me articulate what I think is a problem. 

In the case of recent events, it seems as though nothing is sacred until it is.  Where that line is, and who gets to cross it, and how far it may be crossed seems to be quite arbitrary depending on who you are.  In my time here, I have seen several people on the outer fringes of the community (often by no fault of their own) bring up issues to others, and basically been told to stuff it, as nothing was going to change.  Whatever behavior that was being questioned was acceptable to enough people for this person's opinion (regardless of whether it was right or wrong) not to matter.  But when the situation is reversed, and someone not necessarily always in the thick of the community is approached about something (whether it be right or wrong), they are expected to change.  There is a double standard that is extremely frustrating.

   I think this is a valid point and I'm really tired of people fostering an attitude of "don't talk about the 1,000 pound gorilla in the room" because we've already talked about it 100 times.  If people who weren't here when it was it was orignally discussed and they want to talk about a retreaded topic, regulars don't have to read it.  Whatever discussion is relevant to the board should not be discouraged.

   I think in the past few months this board has become increasingly cliquish and VERY unfriendly to new people.  When people join the board, even after lurking a while they are not neccessarilly adjusted to all the social norms we have established around here.


   Jeff

[jholland]

(yes, I'm going to post a response to my post)

I also think A LOT of board members could stand to learn to be a little empathetic and sensitive to others. Some things are not just taboo, they are JUST PLAIN RUDE to discuss on an Internet forum.

Jeff

[richard]

Shut up and quit whining.

[jholland]

Shut up and quit whining.

Yeah.  Real empathetic.  Thanks for proving my point. 

Jeff

[exodus16_36]

Shut up and quit whining.

Yeah.  Real empathetic.  Thanks for proving my point. 

I'm pretty sure (or at least I hope) that richard was kidding.

[Erik]

Wow...I thought I was the only person who felt like this.

I've been here for a couple of years now, and it still often feels as though I'm on the outside looking in. Granted, there is more I could (and should) be personally doing about this - but at the same time, I haven't truly and fully felt 'welcome' here as often as I could be. I can't say I've made many friends here, and I haven't really spoken with anyone to any great length. There's never been, to me, a very appearant way to make my way 'into' the community at more than just a 'I post and sometimes people read it' level. I understand that many of the people here know each other really well in real life (either by way of the board or before joining it), which probably goes a long way - but as an internet community, I don't think this should be a largely deciding factor in who gets along with who.

I'll be the first person to admit it - I'm different. I'm not a Calvinist, I'm not a Republican, I listen to different music than most of the folks here, and I'm horribly socially awkward. I don't know just how much these things contribute to the way I've felt, but I can't help but think they have something to do with it. To put it simply, I really, really, REALLY don't think this is right. I think this community (and I mean all of the community, myself included) owes it to itself to creating a bigger unity and removing the 'clique' factor that seems to have formed.

This is probably going to come of as little more than me whining, but I think that this is a very prevalent issue for a lot of people. I don't have anything at all against anyone here - the limited interaction I've had has been really, really awesome - but I would like to see more of it in general. I fully intend on doing my part, and I only hope that the rest of the board does so as well.

[Chris (from L.C.)]

One thing that is a major factor is that most of the 'regulars' have met each other several times, and spend a good amonut of time hanging out.

Other than that, I have nothing else to contribute to this thread.

[Daniel]

Wow...I thought I was the only person who felt like this.

I've been here for a couple of years now, and it still often feels as though I'm on the outside looking in. Granted, there is more I could (and should) be personally doing about this - but at the same time, I haven't truly and fully felt 'welcome' here as often as I could be. I can't say I've made many friends here, and I haven't really spoken with anyone to any great length. There's never been, to me, a very appearant way to make my way 'into' the community at more than just a 'I post and sometimes people read it' level. I understand that many of the people here know each other really well in real life (either by way of the board or before joining it), which probably goes a long way - but as an internet community, I don't think this should be a largely deciding factor in who gets along with who.



This is probably going to come of as little more than me whining, but I think that this is a very prevalent issue for a lot of people. I don't have anything at all against anyone here - the limited interaction I've had has been really, really awesome - but I would like to see more of it in general. I fully intend on doing my part, and I only hope that the rest of the board does so as well.

I really, really like this place.  I need to try to meet some of you in real life, but most times my schedule conflicts with meetings, so it makes it really difficult to actually get to know people from the board.  It is extremely hard to get integrated into this community.  I have over 3000 posts, but there are very few people on here who know a handful of things about me.  Now that's probably equally or moreso my fault, but it's still true.  Hell, I've even bought someone's membership.  I have a lot in common with the people on this board, from my theology to my muscial taste (and many of my viewpoints have changed for the better).  I'm really just rambling now, so all that to say, I agree with Erik.

[Erik]

One thing that is a major factor is that most of the 'regulars' have met each other several times, and spend a good amonut of time hanging out.

Other than that, I have nothing else to contribute to this thread.

Yeah...the difficulty of coming into an online community that was, at least in part, borne out of a real-life community, is understandably difficult. I think this should be kept in mind at all times.

[Jason Price]

What defines the 'regulars'?

I think there are two closely linked issues here: 1) an actual cliqueishness, and 2) people's personal feelings about where they fit into that clique.

I've been struck by that in Highschool I was... thread over on the random board.  This board seems to pull in a pretty high inteligence group, and also a group that tends to have not been in the 'in crowd' for most of our developmental life... so most of us seem to be very sensitive about 'how we feel that we fit' in groups.

No one (inside or outside of the 'regulars') can force another person to feel like they are 'in'.  I've watched this kind of thing in real life, and in internet life.  Some people are going to feel left out, and some of them will complain about it.  Since most of us were also outsiders, we react when people play the 'accept me' card.

Clique is also a very loaded word.  Does it mean that those in the clique are deliberatly excluding others?  Are they just being selective about who they allow 'in'? 

I think this is much more of a case of 'click' rather than 'clique'... We all have people that we just 'click' with... I seem to have 'clicked' with a couple of people on the boards... but it's by NO means all of them, or even a majority of them... but there are some friendships that are starting.  Does that make me a 'regular'?  I'm not inclined to think so... but I could be wrong.

Now, there are some examples of what could be called a 'lack of charity'... Those are an entirely different matter, and are probably what people are sensing as the cliqueishness... but it's late, and calling people out isn't the point of this thread...

[-susan-]

I agree with everything Jason just said.

Honestly, if I have something to say about anything that's mentioned in any thread on any board started by anyone, I'm gonna say it.  Which people have probably realized by now.   I may be the only person who doesn't have a single board on ignore, because sometimes I MIGHT just wanted to read something on the Sports Board. (ha)

A lot of times, I have a hard time remembering who people are or establishing a permanent memory of them in my mind when screen names aren't real names and avatars aren't pictures of the actual person.  So I might not respond to something that person has said because I don't entirely REMEMBER the details about that person, so I don't want to say anything that's wrong and screw it up.  There's a reason that Daniel's noob guide on the wiki mentions using your real name, or at least something recognizable as a name -- there are a lot of people on here, MANY of us have met each other and are pretty close, and if you're someone who doesn't post very often and has never met anyone, and all we have is some random letters or words and no picture or a picture of a random object or famous person, well, we're just going to be more likely to respond to someone we can actually put a name and face to.

Also... as someone who has been frequently been pointed out as a "good newbie"... I cannot emphasize enough the power of lurking... and actually paying attention when you do so.  Because if you've been lurking, but you still go ahead and break what are clear social norms... well... it's not going to be pretty.  (I'm honestly not thinking of anyone specific here, because I can't even think of a specific situation... but... that's a generally poor choice for "integration" into the social group).

And... it is a lot to do with clicking.  Like Jason said.

[Erik]

Also... as someone who has been frequently been pointed out as a "good newbie"... I cannot emphasize enough the power of lurking... and actually paying attention when you do so.  Because if you've been lurking, but you still go ahead and break what are clear social norms... well... it's not going to be pretty.  (I'm honestly not thinking of anyone specific here, because I can't even think of a specific situation... but... that's a generally poor choice for "integration" into the social group).

I see what you're saying here, but doesn't this somewhat discourage individuality? I for one am far more interested in being who I am than 'fitting in', and I think that's part of why I often end up feeling like an outcast. It's somewhat of a double-edged sword in that regard.

[-susan-]

It's not so much about "fitting in" as it is about noticing which people seem to interact (especially helpful in determining whether or not you should REALLY be flirting with someone ), if there are certain toes you try not to step in, people you don't joke about certain things with, what is and is not appropriate to post (like, pictures and such)...

[Jay]

Great thread and I completely agree... I will be the first to admit that perhaps I am too sensitive to comments that... well, aren't sensitive.  There are times when I have felt like because I am not on here as often as others I haven't earned my 'tenure' to say certain things.

I could also be making this up, but I tend behavior that looks a lot like insecurity here.  A noob does, says, or posts something in the wrong room and he/she are gauranteed to have 5 people quickly shoot them down... Its like in 6th grade when there is a new student... some of the other students are worried that this new student will detract attention away from us so we either consciously or subconsciously aren't really sure if we want the new student to stay.... OR, if a noob truly does post something COMPLETELY random in the random board, he/she is more likely to get attacked for it or a 'this thread sucks' sign as oppose to someone else who makes a thread stating "I like cookies."  I'll stop here.

I enjoy posting here.  I enjoy the objective opinions and conversation I receive on here, plus I love CC.  Being in ministry it is nice to have people to talk to and interact with that have no affiliation to my local church.